MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
We want to talk more about Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney's White House visit, especially what could be at stake. We've called John Manley for this. He's had multiple top leadership roles in Canada in both the public and private sectors. He's a former deputy prime minister, foreign minister and finance minister. He's been the CEO of a business leaders group and has worked closely with U.S. leaders across Republican and Democratic administrations, and he's with us now. Good morning, Mr. Manley. Thanks so much for joining us.
JOHN MANLEY: It's my pleasure. Thank you.
MARTIN: So when President Trump was asked yesterday about his expectations for his meeting with Prime Minister Carney, he said this.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I don't know. He's coming to see me. I'm not sure what he wants to see me about, but I guess he wants to make a deal. Everybody does.
MARTIN: So let's turn this around. What do you think Prime Minister Carney is hoping to accomplish today?
MANLEY: Well, first, my understanding is that President Trump in his phone call last week invited the prime minister of Canada to come and visit him. And I think for Mr. Carney, it was that important first meeting that he's got to get out of the way. It's high-risk for him on both sides. And he felt that if invited, he should come.
MARTIN: So from your perspective, what would a successful outcome look like today? Are we likely to see some policy movement, or is this more about optics? I mean, I think it's - you know, we've seen that President Trump sometimes liked to dominate people in the Oval Office, making certain comments and, you know, there's just the way his sort of body language works. So what do you think a successful meeting would look like today?
MANLEY: For Mr. Carney, it's going to be important that he resist any of the comments about Canada becoming annexed to the United States or a 51st state - that he say, as Canadians believe, those kinds of comments are highly insulting to us and are of little interest to us. Canada has great national pride, its own history, its own institutions. It's very happy as a collaborator, a cooperator, an ally and trading partner of the United States, but our independence is fundamentally important to us. That's why Mark Carney got elected, and I think he's going to have to make those points to President Trump directly if there's anything that suggests otherwise.
MARTIN: So you don't see any policy movement per se. You mean you think it's more a matter of Prime Minister Carney establishing himself as an equal, as it were. Would that be right?
MANLEY: I think that's right. I think that he would see it as very successful if the president committed to an early negotiation of the USMCA, but I think that it's very difficult for Canada to enter into such a negotiation while the United States is in violation of the agreement that President Trump signed in 2020. So achieving some certainty or stability around how the economic relationship is to be structured going forward would be desirable. Uncertainty is the enemy of decision-making in business. And we're dealing, for the last 100 and some days, with great and continuing uncertainty on that score.
MARTIN: Mr. Carney himself, what do you think his chief assets are in dealing with Mr. Trump?
MANLEY: Mark Carney is a very serious dude. He was the central bank governor in Canada during the global financial crisis, where the British were so impressed with him that they brought him to the U.K. He was governor of the Bank of England and was in that role during the Brexit crisis. He's dealt with some big, complicated issues, and he's got a deep background in business both as a managing director of Goldman Sachs but later as a senior executive in Brookfield. So he's got business, government and central banking experience. I don't think, with great respect to Justin Trudeau, that Donald Trump ever took him that seriously.
MARTIN: You think that his business background would perhaps create common ground that President Trump might value more?
MANLEY: I think those additional credentials make him somebody that Donald Trump is more likely to see as worthy of his respect. We always worry as Canadians dealing with Donald Trump that we somehow trigger his bully reflex. I think that Justin Trudeau had a tendency to do that, and it wasn't to Canada's benefit.
MARTIN: Before we let you go, you've had a lot of experience in managing cross-border relationships yourself. What's different about navigating that relationship now? We have about 40 seconds left.
MANLEY: My biggest intergovernmental role was post-9/11, when I was in charge of Canada's response. And we wanted to solve a common problem. In this case, we don't understand what problem Donald Trump is trying to solve for.
MARTIN: That is former Canadian Deputy Prime Minister and foreign minister John Manley. Mr. Manley, thank you so much for your time.
MANLEY: It was my pleasure. Thank you, Michel. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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